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»» Dialogues

A window on America.

By Dr. Majid Sabour

“A” was a friend of mine in Morocco, “L”, whom I never met, was his niece. She was coming to America so “A” asked me to pick her up from JFK and help her get to her cousin in Ohio. “K” was oueld adderb. “H”, whom I never met, was his colleague. “H” held a nice job in Morocco but he wanted to take a shot at life in America, so “K” asked me if I would take good care of him (thella fih) once he is in America. I gracefully embraced the two propositions and got eagerly waiting to pass into action and make a difference in someone else’s life, even if I never met them before. I lived upstate New York at the time, about three hours north of New York City. D day had arrived and I took a ride to JFK to pick up “L” who was coming from Casablanca. Once at JFK I was surprised to find out that there were no flights from Casablanca that day. Puzzled, I walked around the terminal and asked around. Nobody knew of any flights from Casablanca. Could it be that my friend “A” played a dirty trick on me? But why would he do that? Those were the last questions that flirted with my mind before I hopped into my car and took a ride back home to upstate New York. Three hours later, around 10 PM, as I walked through the door of my apartment, my wife said that “L” had just called to say that she is still waiting at JFK. Impossible! I exclaimed. I just came from JFK and there were no flight from Morocco today. “H” the colleague of oueld derbna was already in America. He had called me few weeks earlier and said he was staying in Brooklyn with “X” and “Y”, a married Moroccan couple whom he knew from back home. “H” wanted to try what life was like in New York City first before he comes upstate. Confused and exhausted and not knowing what to do, I called “H” and asked him if he could go to JFK and pick up “L”, bring her to “X” and “Y”’s place until I return to NYC and pick her up myself. So I hopped in my car and took another ride to NYC. Four hours and a flat tire later I was in Brooklyn, that was the first time ever I met “L”, “H”, “X” and “Y”.

So how did “L” end up at JFK if there were flight from Morocco? Well, it turned out that without previous notice Royal Air Maroc for some strange reason decided to change their itinerary and flew to Montreal first then to JFK. That was the reason there was no flight from Casablanca on the arrivals board. And that was how “L” turned up in JFK. Pretty amazing! I picked up “L” and drove back to home. Sat her up in a bus to Cleveland, Ohio two days later where she joined her cousin. That was the last time I saw her. I heard she ended up in Dallas, Texas where she got married and lived happily ever after. But I did see “H”, “X” and “Y” few times and came to learn a little bit more about them.

“X” and “Y” had emigrated from Morocco with their 3 year old son through the diversity Visa Program aka visa lottery just one year earlier. They were both educated, both had a bachelor degree in literature and both were teachers back home. They were assigned to different regions in rural Morocco and their effort to get their household together were fruitless, so they decided that moving to the USA is a better option. They opted to settle in a ghetto in one of the boroughs of New York City because that was what they could afford, or so it seems. I will spare you the details but I can tell you they lived in what I would call not so enviable conditions. They shared a two bedroom apartment with two other fellow compatriots. ”X” delivered heavy furniture all day long, 7 days a week and got paid in cash and “Y” worked as clerk in a grocery store.

After witnessing a day of “X” and “Y”’s life in NYC I felt bad for them and felt even worse for the 3 year old child, so I suggested they move to upstate NY where they can get descent jobs, live in a descent apartment in a good neighborhood and send their child to a good school. After many attempts they seemed to have been convinced, or so I thought, to make the move. So I asked one of my acquaintances and managed to find them jobs within walking distance of an apartment in a very good neighborhood and near a community college. “X”, after one year in America still didn’t speak any English so he couldn’t get a full time job but was promised to get a full time job if his English improved. “Y”‘s English was just a bit better so she was able to secure a full time job .The day “X” and “Y” came upstate for the job interview and to inspect the apartment and the neighborhood, they seemed happy and eager to make the move, so I put a security deposit for them for the apartment and they went back to NYC to pack. A couple of days later, I called them to inquire about the progress of the move, “X” said that they changed their mind and they no longer wanted to be disturbed. As much as I was surprised and disappointed, I also was enchanted at the thought that it was probably for the best. I was in the midst of own struggles then anyway. “X” had given me many reasons why he changed his mind; but the one that resonated the most, is that he apparently didn’t accept the fact that his wife would be making more money than him by working full time.

These events had taken place over ten years ago. I never saw “X” and “Y” again ever since, but I came to learn that they and their now teenage son still live in the same conditions, doing the same things and living in the same neighborhood.”X” and “Y” could have turned their lives around, secured a better future for themselves and for their son. They could have attended the nearby college and upgraded their education. They could have climbed few steps up the social ladder. They could have become far more useful to themselves, to their son, host country and to their home country. Yet they opted for a mundane and stagnant lifestyle.

To this day, I still ask myself why they chose to turn down an opportunity that I would have paid for had it been presented to me in such circumstances? Did they think that they were not worthy of a better life? Did they think that just by disembarking into NYC and moving into a ghetto is as good as it gets in America? Or do they just carry the “you are not good enough complex”? Did “X”’s chauvinistic ideology get on the way for a better life? Are his chauvinistic ideas and his attitude unique to him or are they a reflection of a distorted Moroccan mentality in general? How many of our fellow Moroccans have settled with what they think is the best they can achieve? How do we prop up our community and motivate it to do better? Can’t we do better? I happen to believe we can. How about you?

Whatever happened with “H” is totally different story.

Drop in a line if you have any thoughts about any of my questions.

Thanks for reading.

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ahmed in la : SSI TBEYB,

You could have replaced your name with my own, many times over in L.A., and it would have seemed proper. I have had my share of similar experiences.
I recall a funny one, when a Moroccan family of 6, fresh off the boat, cramped into a 2 bedroom apartment. After a while, N realized that her life with her husband M, was no longer conducive to her future life in America. She packed up and left with her kids.
M was alone, flirted with a mid-aged undocumented woman and managed to get her pregnant. She could not speak English, he did not speak Spanish, neither spoke the other's language; how they comminicated in the dark, beats me!
He had not paid rent and was facing eviction.
I asked if he had ant deposit held by the owner and he said $1400. His rent was $725.
Mind you, he had no job and no income!
I had the genius idea to stop eviction, I offered temporary shelter and had him and the property manager agree that he will vacate on the 31st and that he will be refunded his deposit, minus reasonable fee for cleaning!
It was the 20th of the month, by than, and he was 20 days late, had incurred some late fee charges, etc..
The small catch was, to avoid eviction, more late fees, attorneys, adverse credit and having a sheriff lock him out, I TMEZREGT, and offered to advance the $725, had everything become current and save him allot of problems. The manager was happy, M. was agreeable and I felt good; the scenario could not have turned out better.
On the proposed day on the 31st, I drove my truck to work, incurred some more gas money and asked to be allowed some personal off time to live early.
Showed up at M’s house and asked him to start taking stuff out.
To my big surprise, he declined and calmly sated that he simply was not going anywhere and that he will stay put! I reminded him of the arrangement with the manager and he answered that he did not care!
I explained that the return of my money was conditional to him leaving and he answered that he will eventually give me my money!
There was red, a glass table was no more, there were sounds of sirens, sirens of a different kind, …
A psychic reader would see an additional valley in his palm which she would probably have a hard time interpreting!
I was just defending myself!
By the way, M stood for Mostafa and there was an A or B there too; they either stood for Aboudihaj or Boudihaj.
I believe he is back in Morocco, somewhere in 3ain Sbe3, Casablanca!
The mid-aged Mexican mother is back in Mexico, having come to the U.S for the opportunity and having returned home with the gift of life! I heard he had the audacity to ask for his right to name the kid!
The funny part is that N mused about DOUKKALA being selfish and slick! Mostafa and I did not only share DOKKALI heritage, being both BNI DGHOGH, but there was something about TLAT SID BANNOUR and LARB3A TEWLAD 3EMRAN that had given me an extra push to help; I dropped my guards and fell for it. He will, although, remember that, taking the boy out of the country, does not necessarily take the country out of him!

Speak softly…

Aylana : Dr. Sabour,

After reading you carefully and deciphering the L, Y and X, I can’t help but asking you, are you sure they were educated enough to understand the help you were offering to them and also, are we sure the reason why they decided against moving to a better place was because the gentleman was worried about his wife making more money?

None of this makes much sense to me; obviously it did not to you either. I would think that an educated couple would give the offer given to them more thought, weight and evaluation before saying yes or no.

We have chauvinistic individuals in Morocco, they are everywhere.I always link that chauvinistic thing to a level of education one can have. The more educated you are the better you handle problems since education teaches you how to think and think in all directions and all possible ways, you are more understanding.

Some would have liked to have more opportunities or help to move on and do better, others were given plenty of those and never took them.
Regarding motivating the community, I find it a hard task. The only thing we can do is offer a hand with the hope they will take it.
This has a lot to do with your background, and how prepared are you to sacrifice now to collect later. Some want to work and make money right away (if they can) without thinking is best to prepare, educate you now and collect later.
I have seen Moroccans with an incredible drive, strive, others with none at all.

Finally, one thing we must take always into account Dr: who is to say what is good for you and me is good for others? Are we talking about economic progress, happiness with less? Who is to say the couple living in that ghetto you said is not happier than we are? At times, all lies there.

Thanks for writing.

obaid : I wasn't very surprised to hear your story, many of the like was subject of many discussions I had in the past. I want to attempt the answer for some of your legitimate questions.
One might think or argue that -who knows?- this couple might be doing well, however, assuming that they are still in the same conditions (since you have never met them since longtime), it is fair to think that their lifestyle never changed and therfore they didn't do good. Now, the WHY?
I beleive first that people in general tend to resist to change. Second, as you mentioned the man was not ready for a chanage because it will put him socially inferior to his wife. As much as I find it odd Maybe -just maybe- he had all the reasons (knowing what kind of woman his wife is) to beleive that his life could turn to better just to fall apart.
As far as I am concerned, we moroccans seem to be generally more conservative in our dealings and have a narrow vision to the future. little do we know that the sky is the limit. Did we bring it from morocco? maybe.
I don't know why we are who we are. I don't know why this couple couldn't move their living standard up. I don't know if the moroccan mentality should be subject to studies and meditations. I don't know all of this but I know that if Majid Sabour did what he did -and he is moroccan- then there is hope and there is pride in being moroccan.
Bravo!

walad : Living in America for over 16 years, I learned to never help any Moroccan no matter what. Yea, I know. Most of you wafiners will disagree with this statement. After helping more than a dozen friends,I always end up being the bad guy. After I offered a college budy from back home to sta with me for 3 months after his sister kicked him out, he accumulatd over $2,000 phone bill on my name and he left to another city without even saying thank you. I think this is a Moroccan thing. When I helped my American neighbor carry some grocery upstairs, she invited me to breakfast with her husband and kids.

not24get : what a topic! one can never get enough of some moroccan ghrayb. i just want to back up your point about many and many moroccans who never think about improving their life thru education, so they keep hopping from a job to a similar one doing the same sh.... things over and over for years. most of us consider themselves 3aaaayqin wtiyara. the thing is this is not Morocco, wllah laqfalti la fawerti.so they fall into self-satisfaction and complacency. Time is money,of course here,i'm not talking about Morocco. we shoould have it as a sign on our night stand. i want to add that having a bacholor's degree doess not make one smart or have a good judgement, it's mostly how one was brought up, raised and treated in his family and his ability to learn from ones mistakes as well as others....walakin leman t3awed zabourek a dawed... not24get

Zaky2@aol.com : I cannot concur more with the article as I have been through similar experiences. Having been in the US for over 22 years, and being raised in a family that stressed the duty to extend a helping hand to others, I have tried to do more of that over the past few years. I have reached out to new comers over and over again. Some gave up and moved back to Morocco (one guy just moved back last month after 2 years in the US), some are just plain lazy and and don't bother to better themselves for reasons of lack of self-worth and motivation. On the other hand, there are many who progress, go to school, get their degrees, start their own businesses, or simply engage in a professional job and go on to become very successful. The success stories regardless of success rate are enough for me to forget every instance when the helping hand was bitten. I will continue to help my bretheren as much as I can as a matter of principle and any happy endings are net gains. Don't let the bad experiences and the bad apples change who you are.

as_is : Let me see, in whatever situation they are in, it is their choice and we ought to respect that regardless of outcome. No one knows for sure that their situation would have been better had they accepted others' offers.
If one wants to assist another person, one ought to do it with no expectation and nothing in return. I understand you asked for nothign in return. "la norido minkum jazaa wala shokoura" not even recognition, otherwise u 'd come across as seeking attention.
How do you they would feel if they came across this piece and they recognized it is about them???
We ough to respect others' choices. You did a noble deed by extandign a helping hand; if it got turned down, should have let it go, FOR GOOD!!!

wafin077 : Salam fellow Wafiners:
I believe that we as Moroccans come from two different groups (Way of thinking if I may say this): First group is the one of Morocans who came to America with the idea of starting all over their lives, grab opportunities, build a future (Go to school, learn how others have success from other ethnicities...etc) in hopes to earn the result of that hard work, either becoming a business owner or successful professional. Second group are the ones who came from Morocco to AMERICA....WOW...Kheddam CASH $400 ALSIMANA....WOW $1600 FECHAHR makaydirhach Alkaid!!!! So they just keep doing the same JOBS over and over, living same life style, and get busy with it, but never staps for a minute and ask where things are going like this? (They may be happy too....This is still true, and each ones way of happy life is relative), and time passes by quickly, collecting cash from may be 2 or 3 jobs....Till one day they wake up and it's too late, he/she got married, with kids, but no education, no experience, no skills in certin fields that are more rewarding financially, so they were bringing the same ideas of DEBBAR 3LA KHEDMA that's all... jobs that will not now pay for a good decent life style, but for them this is how they always were raised in Morocco to find a job and be independent, but they never compared this idea if it will be getting same result in America when you have a family and kids.....I may be wrong, but these are things I learned in my 10 years I have spent in this land....And yes, we Moroccans wants everything NOW....We do not have a teaching for a long term plans, and it's part of our culture I guess.....Everything that happend in Morocco for last 50 years is because nobody was thinking we will have generations and they need to plan for them to live a better life.
These are my two cents.
Alla isahal a3la aljami3.
Salam.
Hassan.

ould_lbled01 : Dr. Sabour

Your story is common to many immigrant populations around the globe and I don't believe it's unique to Moroccans. You're a nice and helpful man trying to lend a hand to ouled_l'Bled but sometimes I am as puzzled about how some approach the concept of bettering their lives, especially when someone is educated, healthy, and ambitious. The only think I say is that they are not smart.

My advice to new immigrants is to try integrate in this society right away. Choose a small town. Get to school right away, there is plenty of help if you are willing to sacrifice. Don't waste time. learn a trade, a profession, and most importantly learn the language and build a career. Don't expect to have the money right away to build your dream house in Morocco and help your family. Be patient and project on longterm. Don't expect to get rich overnight or perhaps even ever.

Friend, do what Chinese say, teach me how to catch a fish and don't give me a fish. Apply this motto in your future initiatives to help, you will be happy with the results.

zazette : "You often say, "I would give, but only to the deserving."

The trees in your orchard say not so, nor the flocks in your pasture.

They give that they may live, for to withhold is to perish.

Surely he who is worthy to receive his days and his nights is worthy of all else from you.

And he who has deserved to drink from the ocean of life deserves to fill his cup from your little stream.

And what desert greater shall there be than that which lies in the courage and the confidence, nay the charity, of receiving?

And who are you that men should rend their bosom and unveil their pride, that you may see their worth naked and their pride unabashed?

See first that you yourself deserve to be a giver, and an instrument of giving.

For in truth it is life that gives unto life - while you, who deem yourself a giver, are but a witness. " GKGibran

I think we should respect other people's choice and not assume we know what is best for them. The couple had his reasons to reject your "help". I honestly enjoyed reading your article, I was curious to know where it was leading me. But I was disappointed to read the end. Anyway, this article the way I understood can be summarized like this:

I am a “very successful” man, very nice, kind generous. I met some Moroccan losers, I tried helping them but they were dumb, they rejected it. So what is wrong with Moroccans? Why aren’t they as successful as I am?

If you see someone naked on the street, do you go ask him why you are naked, or why are you homeless? You help him and do your best if you can and you don’t mention it to anyone. You don’t go bragging about your help under the mask of: “I am trying to understand what is wrong with that homeless guy”. From your both articles I am starting to feel your need for admiration and your despise for Moroccans.

You could have addressed the subject without putting down other people, what if they read this article, they will feel hurt. Put yourself in their shoes.

Kind regards.
Zette

Aylana : Zette,
I have a different view on this.
First, I do not believe the author of this post wanted anything from the couple but help them out. I believe all he said. We all went thru similar situations in which you tried to help and your help is ignored or not accepted. That is fine.

As I said in my earlier post, we never know who is happy doing what or living in what conditions.

I do not think the author felt these individuals were losers or dumb. I do not think he wanted anything in return. He simply tried to help because he was in a better position to do so, they were newcomers and he probably have a better idea of how the system works and what in general is a better deal in this foreign country he has lived in probably for a while.
We should not assume anything, we offer help and it is up to you to take it or not.

Regarding the example you gave us, I would not ask the homeless men why is he homeless but I will offer some clothing and tell him that I feel is best for him to be warm and safe wearing clothes I can provide. If he says no, I will let him run naked. Very simple.

My issue is not that much why they do not accept the offer, but the ones that do accept the offer and help, pretty soon they forget and do not appreciate it.

I do not expect anything when I help, anything but appreciation.
I do appreciate even today, those that helped me or guided me when I needed it. It is normal and human to expect appreciation from those we help and show appreciation to those that have helped us and continue helping us.

Finally, I do not think the author despises Moroccans; it is not my impression at all.
This topic or post is a good one and much better than many others posted. It is a way for us to interact with each other with respect.

zmagry007 : Dr. Sabour. It is generous to extend a hand and try to help strangers. But, look at it from their angle. These people did not know you. You were basically proposing they change jobs, apartment and city all at once. How can they be sure that you do not turn your back on them once they arrive in Upstate New York? Many people talk about offering help to others but the reality is that very few people go the distance. And Help belongs to those who help themselves.

Who are we to judge what is good for others? How do we actually measure success? If you look at it in the traditional one dimension way, then it is clear that these people are more successful than their friends who stayed behind in some Moroccan small town teaching kindergarten school. Then come the people who got some undergrad degree or learned some profession. Then come the people with graduate degrees (doctors, dentists, professors, lawyers etc…). Then come the entrepreneurs who started small start-ups, built equity and employ dozen of employees. Then come the people who rose through the ranks to executives levels of Fortune 500 companies etc, etc… In that sense success is all relative!! Success is not one dimensional though. A big part is career but it would certainly also be health, spiritual, emotional, time and financial. As an example, one can be successful in one’s career but not emotionally. Of course, this list isn’t exhaustive - so what is relevant to you? What is relevant to them? This is what makes us individuals.
All right!! Enough with all the gossiping!! In my view, this is what the article and the responses represent (including mine). Gossips!!
Maybe we should be paying more attention about ourselves instead of "gossiping" about others.

obaid : ZAZATTE :)

If you see a homeless somewhere, it doesn't hurt to ask the why. you never know, maybe there could be something you can do to help(ex: show a shelter or even a path to a job)

If you see a wrongdoing or a mistake (from your perspective of course), it doesn't hurt to be curious and try to help.

If you see Zazett thinking and reducing this article as only a show off from the writer, it doesn't hurt to remind her that moroccan mentality and attitude is really worth discussing.

Niether Sabour' pride nor Zazette's(I don't know what to call it. let it be X) was necessary here. however, his pride was embeded, her X was plain.

I forgot to mention that if you see someone naked, say "ALLAH YASTAR" o tlab TASLIIM :) (and really, see if you can vigilinatly help, maybe throwing a cloth on could do it)

zazette : Aylana,

I did not think or wrote that the author had or should not have expectations from the couple. Where did u read that, in the poem? That is not what the poem was meant for. I used it to say that: it is life that gives unto life and that the giver is but a witness. If the author did not help X and Y , they were going to receive help from someone else.

I think the topic could have been addressed without putting down or mentioning the couple. I really felt sorry for them. No one likes to be put down and talked about behind his or her back on a public forum. Would you like it if people talked behind your back on a public forum, and said bad things about you? Would you?
I find it unethical and not kind.

zazette

lefshoush : Hi;

I don't think Sabour intended to humiliate A and B when he took the time to write about his brief experiences with them.
I think that his questions are valid; Yes the couple lived in non safe environment , and worked at a super market tons of hours for a little amount of Money.Brooklyn is no walk in the park either , and I will take upstate Ny anytime except winter time(for those who don't know, it's cold and snows 10 times more what New York City gets).

I also don't know what was the couple's reaspn for chaning their minds and staying behind. but the least that they could have done is to be honest with the man who provided help. the man deposited a down payment for a place,drove 3hours to pick them up etc
Sabour, may be the snow scared them ;) did you think about that!!! or may be they were so attached to Nyc,mosques,arabic shops, and the khel rass. Up State is not for everyone I think.

As for Moroccan Mentality, yes we are unique, I don't know if that s a good thing.

Aylana : Zazette,

I find this post totally fine.

The author did not name anyone by name or last name, he was giving us an scenario of something that happened to him. I took it as one more post of the many we read and replied to, one more for us to interact with each other.
We all read and interpret the best we can. I do not sense he is putting them down either,nor talking behind their backs. I do not think he is saying bad things about anyone.

I find the author coherent enough for me to understand his point. Obviously, that is me and there are others that have their right to interpret it anyway they can or like.

I mentioned the appreciation part for me; I said it is important to me that even though I do not expect anything in return whenever I help, a sign of appreciation should always be there for the ones helping or offering help. I always appreciated the help I got when I need it.
That is all.

I am sorry if I was misunderstood or not clear enough in my previous message.

Cervantes : For those who are interested in learning the reality “TV” version of this story it goes like this: I just hang up the phone with the X and Y couple and they told me that the reason they decided not to make the move up state is because they realized that the author of the story was obsessed with wanting to run their lives for them. He wanted to show them everything that he likes and enjoyed and have them obey every command he makes regarding what they eat, when they sleep, and how often they have intercourse. They told me that he suffocated them to the point that they could not think of any other way to get away from him than to tell him the stories about not wanting to get ahead because X cannot have Y make more money than he does. Sad but true, that’s how the story played out. In addition, the couple told me about their plans and their financial outlook for the next several years. They told me that their initial plan was to come here and make as much money as possible regardless of the condition they live in. They had planned to take advantage of the system here in the states to save up as much $$ as possible before moving back to the home land for retirement. X, works in jobs that pay cash under the table while Y works in some minimum wage job just for cover up. They are collecting government help to pay for food and shelter while the rest is being saved up. Y, in addition, has another business on the side helping some other Arab women in the neighborhood for a certain fee. They wanted me to tell the author that they are happy and satisfied with the way the plan is going. Oh, and that their bank account back home is very healthy.
As for “L” the niece of “A”, she told me that she does not even want to hear the name of the author. She told me that he put her through hell in her first 48 hrs. in the new land. She told me that she could not believe that someone who claims to be all that could not manage to gather the proper information and in turn only relied on the arrival board information. The stress that she told me she ended up enduring that day was enough to make her sick of traveling for ever. Can you believe it she said, that someone drives all the way for 3 hours then only checks the arrival board and nothing else. She told me that it was her worse nightmare to have to go with two strangers to their home not having any other option. She was scared and confused in addition to all the normal stress that one encounters during his first trip to the new land. She added that she is pretty surprised that the author thought that she will contact him or have him hear from her again. She also said more things that I cannot repeat in such a respectful site.
And that’s all I know.

zazette : Aylana, People are different and therefore it is normal to have different sensitivities to any given matter. But that is a minor point.

To answer the question: why Moroccans are not ambitious enough? I think the answer lies in where they come from and especially their upbringing and education. For example when I decide to do something really different and new in my career I try not to share my plans with Moroccans, why? Because they will just discourage you. "kayherssouk". They see everything difficult. They worry a lot. I think it comes from the repressive society we come from where FEAR is the driving force: FEAR from the judgment day (people behave because they fear the punishment), FEAR from lboulis. In USA I love to see policeman because they represent safety and protections of citizens from Criminals. In a policeman could be the aggressor of innocent people when he asks them to pay a fine for nothing or he would take their car or insult them etc… . FEAR from the teacher at school who “use” to beat students. FEAR from your own parents, etc. As a consequence, most Moroccans have low self-esteem. For example, most of them will tell you I feel ashamed to say I am from Morocco because Morocco has prostitutes or has drug dealers. Why do you feel responsible for other people’s actions? . I think they feel ashamed period, because they have low self-esteem and they blame it on others.
Self-esteem is built or destroyed at an early age. Kids in Morocco are not respected: when they try to say something: adults reaction is often: shut up, what do you? So obviously the child thinks he/she is dumb and grows up not even able to express him/herself. Have you noticed the difference between an 8-9 years old child raised in Morocco versus US or Europe?

Why are kids not well brought up in Morocco? I think the answer is because the majority of parents of people from our generations were illiterate, have no clue how to raise self-confident children.

abid, I think your mentality is not worth discussing for me, because I just describeda bove. I did not reduce the article to a show off from the author. Reread my comment and ask someone to translate it for you if not clear enough.
I could respect your opinion if you address me in a respecful way but not if you send persnal insults. I think that your comment just shows the bad upbringing I mentioned here. Grow up.

Zazette

Karimnyc : What a one sided story! Worse, are the readers comments! People are so eager to judge and condemn!
"A window on closed mindedness" would have been a more appropriate title! The author sees things through his own views only! I say to him: Please come down off your high horse and respect other people's choices.One other thing, please take time more time to drive down to the city and explore its beauty and rich culture: Especially Brooklyn's. (Main streets in upstate could take their toll on you)

Aylana : Cervantes,

You said: “and that is all I know”, and I say, that is a lot to know, don’t you think so?

Let’s air some more day time TV, this time applying logic or some common sense if we can and all for the entertainment of it all.
Remember, common sense is the least common of all senses.

I assume you know these individuals and the author.
If I am to think with logic, I will have a hard time believing that the author was obsessed with managing the couples’ lives.
I have no idea who Dr.Sabour is, and if he is a doctor or a carpenter, it does not matter, but I assume that he has a life and probably a busy one, the same as you and I.
I doubt he was willing or looking to manage them at all, it does not make sense. What would he gain?

The individual that expected to be picked up from the airport, I will tell her get a taxi next time. If I go to the airport to get someone and she/he does not arrive, I am going back home and I will check no more, if they call me from where they are and need me to get them I will do so or not. She said she had no options? I would tell her there are plenty of hotels and motels around. Of course she had choices or options.

If you talk to the couple again Cervantes, tell them this: That a silly girl in the forum pays taxes and they should too. Tell them also, (you know, they do not know the system well! Are you kidding me?) yes tell them that the US government Social Services are for the needy, please no to “milk it” it is unjust and unfair, MORE so when they say they have a fat/healthy bank account in Morocco (I guess it is not healthy enough, what do you think Cervantes?)

Tell them, but please explain well to them that what they are doing is consider illegal in the US. Tell them also, that when someone offers help in whatever shape or form they can accept it or not, but always appreciate it, tell them also to be humble in life.

I wonder if they would be mad knowing that you have told us what they are doing.

All this writing, for them fun of it all!
Peace and understanding.

zazette : I wonder whether aylana is Kwoorl:)

you do not seem to get Moroccsan jokes. Cervantes was just joking. I found his senario kinda sharp and funny, and hopefully not offensive for the author of this article.
Zazette

Cervantes : Aylana,
I just finished talking to the couple and they told me that they want to make a correction to your comments. Their bank account in Morocco is not fat/healthy, it’s just healthy and they are willing to lend you some money to that you can purchase a sense of humor. They said that they believe that Wal-Mart has a special this upcoming Easter Sunday- Buy one get another for half price.
I think Zazette got your number.

Aylana : Zazette,

I do not know who Kwoorl is, or what you are talking about.

Ah! Could you not tell I was also joking?

Remember, we were (are) playing with a day time TV show here. We all do what we can. My "on air time" never comes right :):):)

Aylana : Cervantes,

By all means, money is always welcome.
Have zezette call me so that I can give my bank account for the wire transfer.:):)

Granted, if I could purhase some sense of humor I would. I wish we could purchase many other things besides sense of humor.

I never tried to mean anyhing but to follow what you wrote in a different direction. All for the fun of it, nothing else.

Happy weekend.

zazette : Aylana, if you are not Kwoorl, you are her cousin. Look her up on wafin's previous articles, you will see that you share a lot with her.

Where is Dr Sabour?

inspector papiche

zazette : No I could not tell you were joking Ayalan. I get only Moroccan jokes :)

Zazette

Aylana : I have no cousins that I know of and I do not know who kwoool is. But if you insist that a member of my family is here without my knowledge, then, you know more than I do.

I figured that out, zezette, that you only get Moroccan jokes. It takes sometime and a bit more to extend or expand to get both. :):)

Happy day!

zazette : Aylana,
I know it takes time to extend or expand as you put it. I hope it won't take you too long to start getting Moroccan jokes so we don't waste time anlyzing them as if they were a statment.

Happy life
Zahra

DrSabour : Yet, some other unintended consequences of my writing, this time around it got Mr. Cervantes hearing voices and conversing with people that only exists in his imagination, thus revealing signs of schizoid personality disorders, just another psychopathic behavior exuded through ones writing. It is one thing to have a great sense of humor and it is another one to have an inadequate sense of humor.

Zazette says: “I am a “very successful” man, very nice, kind generous. I met some Moroccan losers, I tried helping them but they were dumb, they rejected it. So what is wrong with Moroccans? Why aren’t they as successful as I am?” You also said that I despised Moroccans. What made you change your mind about me so fast? Could you be swinging in the realm of the bipolar spectrum? It makes wonder if you are as quick to climax as you are quick to pass judgments.
Just to elaborate a little bit about the circumstance surrounding those events, and take it whichever way you see fit Zazette (by the way, I love this name: Zazette it sounds cool). At the time, I was not successful, as I said I was in the mist of my own struggles. I was running a small concession stand in a mall selling Moroccan handcrafts. Since I was not allowed to close shop as per the mall rules, I had to pay someone to work for me that day. I went to pick up “L” because she is my best friend’s niece. Had I found her form the first trip to JFK, or had RAM not flown to Montreal first. I would have picked up “L”, I would have never met “X” and “Y” and that would have been the end of it all. Everything happened by pure coincidence.

Two major reasons that prompted me to try to help. Without them I probably wouldn’t have given a flying crap about how or in what conditions anybody else lives. I said in my article that I will spare you the details, but for those who can’t expand their imagination to understand what that means, or for those who simply don’t know what it means to live in the ghetto in Brooklyn, I will say this, and I am sure this will resonate with Mr. Unelected Mayor of Brooklyn in this forum. And by the way get on your high horse, that is if you have one, you might have a broader view of Brooklyn and what it is like to live in certain areas of Brooklyn.

The first reason is that “X” and “Y” had a 4 years old son who lives in a building that is raided by the cops at least on a weekly basis. “X” and “Y” had a son that shares the stairways on daily basis with drug dealers that carry hand guns in their waists. They can reach for that hand gun and pull the trigger before you can say hello with no remorse. So Mr. Mayor of Brooklyn, this is not about your culturally rich Brooklyn. This is about providing a safe environment to raise an innocent child. That child didn’t make the choice to live in those conditions. For those who think that it is “X &Y”’s choice, I couldn’t agree more. The question is, is it the right choice?

The second reason is, as I said X and Y were educated, so I assumed that they harbored a potential to do better in life. And as I learned in this system, sometimes all you need is just a little crack in the ceiling to be able to break through. That is what I assumed they needed and that is what I tried to provide for them.

But the ultimate driving force for me was the Moroccan community. In the broader scheme of things I do wish for the Moroccan community to be successful, wealthy and powerful. I am not anti-Semite, but one cannot help but bring up the example of the Jewish community in America. Does anybody doubts if Israel would be this powerful a country if it wasn’t for the successful, educated, rich and powerful Jewish Community in America. Draw a parallel and understand my perspective.

zazette : Kwoorl,
Glad you figured that out because a joke that does not make me even smile does not qualify for the term "joke". where is the funny part in yours.

Aylana : Zazette,

I understand that we all have different sense of humor. I do not expect you to smile with my writing, nor you should expect me to smile with Cervantes’s comment to the post where he said he spoke with the individuals in question.
Even though I knew he was not serious, I do not consider his writing something that would make me laugh or smile, hence,our different taste for jokes.

I do get Moroccan jokes when they fit my sense of humor. I am sorry that one did not do it.

In Cervantes defense or the defense you are “defending” I have seeing Cervantes writing some pretty good ones,that one was not one of them.

One thing that is appalling to me is when people assumes. You are assuming I am a Kwoool and I do not know who or what that is. Remember perception is not reality.

For you to know, my sense of humor is one that only a few get, and I clearly have not shown any of it in this post, so do not feel bad, there was nothing to smile about,that is the reason why you did not smile.

Remember we are writing for fun, it is ok to disagree.

AYLANA

zazette : Aylana,

May be if I explain to you the funny part of his joke you will get it. But I can't because I may offend some people here. Just a hint, it was the airport scene.

Sure we can disagree but please read my comments before disagreeing with me on things we both agree on like the prostitution video for example.

zazette

Aylana : Zazette,

I know what you are saying, I get it, why do you insist that I do not get it? How do you know how I feel or what I get or not?

I got it then, I get it now, but I do not share with you the funny part of it you said,that is all.

Now that we clear a few things around the corner, let's hope Wafin posts somehing else to discuss, or perhaps you can come up with something new and different so that we can exchange.

I mean it when I say good day and thank you, I do.

zazette : Dr Sabour,
I do not suffer from a personality disorder and I did not change my mind about you. I still think you are a great person. I really do. I read and commented on your article without taking into account who the author was. In other words I was objective. I described how your article comes across. I would have made the same comment if a close friend gave me an article to proof read it. Sometimes it helps to see things from the other person's angle there might be some truth in what I wrote.

Again I did not change my mind about you YET. But I might :). It is normal, haven’t you changed your mind about people? People change their mind about their own partners after sharing years with them under the same roof.

But I do believe in my own intuition and I my intuition tells me you are great person.I guess my intuition's judgementis is based on what I read from you in the past. But again we all have our flaws. I will be more careful next time when I comment on your articles and I apologize if I offended you.

PS: I sent another comment but I don’t know why it was not published.

Zazette

zazette : Aylana, I get that from your writing obviously.

You can move on my friend if you want to. I am not done. I am waiting for Dr Sabour to close the debate :).

I would love to write something to dicuss on wafin but my English is 3la 9ad l7al. May be I ll do if you accept to edit it for me.

We can work on something together like "Moroccan Men"

Take care...

Zazette

Aylana : Zazette,

I am not good for editing, you have been doing that for me, but if you bring the topic of “Moroccan Men” I will, I promise, do my best. The topic will deserve it.

Your English is pretty good.
I do better in Chinese remainder theorem or solving congruence.

Let’s go for Moroccan Men topic. :):)

zazette : Aylana,

I was kidding, je ne veux pas etre tabassee ici :)

But I will think about it.

zazette

Trying : To Mr.Sabour,

Unfortunately, it will take years before we Moroccans rise to a level where we can debate, and discuss articles in a more professional manner, rather than bringing personal drama.Please don't get intimidated by some, your story was great, you made your point and many of us appreciate that .

Thanks again

ahmed in la : Hello guys, I’m back, fresh out of Morocco, but hopefully not for long. I just want to make a correction to Cervantes and Ssi Tbeib; some of the plans have materialized, grace to God and my residence, God willing, would be douar Sidi 3iyyach rather than douar Lehjajma or douar Nkhakhsa, a couple miles north of the northern Kenitra exit of the freeway. My offer, to both of you, stands.
I also would not be too inclined to further get involved in this forum, for obvious reasons and for better use of my time. Clock starts now to get business taken care of and to have something to fall back on.
Also the wafin member who had contacted me, recently, while in Morocco, Hicham or Karim!!! please e-mail me again, I lost your message.
Good luck to all.
AhmedinLA@earthlink.net

kayll2000nj : zazette and Aylana...in case you did not know there is an invention called chat room (and wafin ha sone by the way)that is superbly perfect to exchange personal messages. lol!!!,

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