Karim is a Moroccan in the U.S. who runs his own business. He always complains about the 10 years of hard work he had to go through before starting his business. "Why couldn't five Moroccans"-asks Karim-"work only two years each to start together this business and enjoy an easy 8 years of leverage?"
I would like wafiners to answer his question, but let me make my point. We wouldn't be surprised to know the story of Samaha (Palestinian). He came to this country and found himself surrounded by Palestinians (not family!!) some are from the same tribe. They helped him build his credit, train him in the business of clothing and then helped him have his own clothing business. In 3 years, not only was Samaha financially independent, he was ready and eager to help the next new comer.
One would argue that these are special cases. Yes they are. One couldn't argue however with strong conviction that some communities are known to be running such or such kind of businesses (it marks their identity). I asked myself do we-Moroccans- have an identity in that sense?
I am well aware of one fact though, the Moroccan community in the U.S. is relatively new and most likely the base of longtime residents in the U.S. is still struggling, so they can't help.
Cant’ we start shaping our identity?. Here is what I suggest to start with. Similar to window that wafin is showing in its home page, why can't we have the same with the title: where successful Moroccans can share WHAT OTHER MOROCCANS could be doing in other places. And remember, it doesn't take high degrees always to achieve high.
Dear wafiners, the stories I cited are from the sea of my imagination but I believe their implications can affect real lives.
I am open to any constructive comment (including the one that says that no identity should be our identity :))
abdelnyc : thank u brother for bringing this issue up, l don't want to generalize but based on my experiences in this country,if u r a moroccan, moroccans are the last people to ask for help. u should be thankful if they just leave u alone. we r good at hating, cheating and taking advantage of one an other. the only thing l should montion is the experience l had with jewish moroccans, if u work hard and proove urself. they reward u and give u what u deserve. others, the more u work the more they ask for, and u should thank god if u get ur check in the end of the week..one peice of advice. the best help moroccans can give is to leave each other alone. just one question to my moroccan fellows, does it really hurt if a new commer works harder and becomes financialy better than u??/ help each other and stop being selfish. allah yehdikoum...
simobo : it not about about identity we all agree that moroccan have there own . it s whene a moroccan ask an other one for help and he cant find specialy if ur new and you are struglling to find a job or achieve a project no body yes no body goona hook u up because u are just a moroccan like him ok let s take look at other poeple like spanish who help etch other or palistinian or other immigrent like us who are united to help etch other .the 1st thing whene u ask a stranger moroccan for somthing or for just build a rolation ship u see a trange reaction in his face ( ghadi tkoulbo oulla ghadi tkhllek lih machakil)what i found that all moroccan tay3rfou ghire ryousshom but dont forget ( allho m3a el jama3a )
benzinas : Great idea Obaid. It would be a great way to transfer knowledge and experience. I hope wafin.com adopts it.
On the issue of Moroccans not helping each other, I agree that there's no sense of community or brotherhood. We could sit here and talk about how bad it is, and that non-Moroccans can help better than Moroccans...etc. It is important to realize how helping each other is vital to all of us in the States though. It is impossible to solve or bring to the surface issues that Moroccans face today without having a tight and organized community. I think it's something that can be learned. I also think it's inevitable. The more time people spend in this country, the more they'll learn about how important a healthy community is. It's all part of the civics that we lack in Morocco.
Last, needless it is to mention that most "Arab-Maghrebans" suffer an identity crisis. To put it in simple terms, I personally view the world as a big nuclear plant where "East" and "West" collide. Morocco is so close to the nuclear plant that the radiation is damaging the identity of its people. Are we arabs? Muslims? Africans? Europeans? Berbers?...etc.
The identity crisis causes a problem in communication - Moroccans don't really master any language. It also kills creativity and initiative - Easy to see this when you look at every aspect of our society. Both of these factors I believe, are the cause of our self-hatred. How can one that does not love him or herself help someone else, especially someone that looks and sounds like him...
Peace.
amzmiz1 : As small business owner, being in this country for 20 years . I had reached all friends I have known for 2 decades. I did not get help , so I decided to do it. This year we are celebrating 6 years in business . I have learned in 6 years that there is process . We are here in US, The best things is to go through the process. entrepeneur magazine . educate yourself about business plan, banks , relatives if you have any. The best friend is your wallet and your sweat. America is full of dreams and it can happen to anyone. Finally , read, read , read and educate your self
boshtaa25 : i proudly say I AM boshtaa
knockoutfatiha : Interesting, the parallels between Palastenians and Jews... Jews were once known to help lift one another out of poverty via networking, ect. I guess they are like cousins that are so much alike that they hate each other.
I hav'nt noticed, in my time around Moroccans, much buisness networking, at thier gatherings. Most seem busy working lots of jobs, or a lot of hours at one, to send money back to Morocco. Kinda hard to invest in a buisness doing that. Moroccans are strange creatures; they are attracted to and repulsed by thier own kind.
rasami : Good point Obaid.I guess we are stil a growing community. We are also still looking for winds of change in mentality, mgharba ta lmout....etc ..But remember change comes with work , physical and mental.To help someone ,we need a plan , an association that adopts our problems and unifies us here in the US. We need people that have experience to come forward and be ready to feed others who are lost .But we need patience , we 've got to sit down and have some straight talk about ourselves and what we want to do.
cervantes : Mr. Obaid,
I am not quite sure how you came about putting the identity question with the question of helping one another. For me personally, these are two independent issues and putting them together in one lump does not allow for much commenting as one subject seems to confuse and diverge the discussion from the other. So, the question is, is my willingness to help my Moroccan brother part of my identity as a Moroccan, or part of my character, personality and outlook on life as a human being? To help another human being in desperate need is part of our human instinct. To help our fellow brother get ahead is part of our character as individuals. To attach this subject to an identity factor for a whole population of a country is a bit odd.
Being your countryman however, I can see where you are trying to go with this article. The truth of the matter is that we Moroccans, generally speaking, all wear our pride on our sleeves. We do not allow another person to advice us or teach us something we do not know. We believe that we know it all. Anyone who approaches us with an advice we automatically think that he is “Kay fham 3lina”. I learned that there are two types of people who do not learn and therefore, do not get ahead. The first type is the shy people-they usually are too afraid to ask and too shy to get involved. The second type is the arrogant and the too proud folks who are too afraid to admit that they do not know everything. Moroccans are generally not a shy breed. I am not sure if we are known to be arrogant, but we are definitely too proud.
Giving help is generally very easy. Getting help takes a certain type of skills. Not everyone knows how to deal with help. They might ask for it, but when they get it they will not make full use of it. We need to learn how to ask for help and how to use the help once we get it so that we can get help. There are many folks who claim that our community is helpless and does not provide for it own. I say these folks are beyond help. Let us be honest with ourselves, how many times have we managed to get the horse to the water and were not able to make him drink. How many times have we handed a fish to the same person who refused to learn to fish?
When we finally arrive at answering these questions honestly and responsibly we will start looking within ourselves and wonder how we can not only become a useful hand to lend to the other, but we will hopefully realize how to make full use of the stretch hand in the most sufficient and effective way without breaking it.
Wafin a Hnipez?!!
A Khai, ara shi garo
A Khai, ara shi derham
A Khai, ara shi……
hamdoun : Dear Wafiner,
One thing about business in general is that you cannot base your decision one what nationality you are going to partner with. You will set yourself for failure.
Newcomers, I think, should gain experience, assimilate to the U.S society, and then think of starting a business. Our culture, in Morocco, is dramatically different than the one we got used to in the U.S. If you open a restaurant in Morocco and your family came to dine, they don’t expect you to charge them. In the U.S you will lose your shirt if you mix your business with family matters.
I think sometimes we totally forget how different it is here than in Morocco. You are most likely unhappy about my comments but it is what it is.
Finally, the idea of starting a business with your fellow Moroccans contradicts the American concept. The concept of living and cooperating with other races, religions, and nationalities.
Honestly, one might think that soliciting on this website for newcomers to start a “business” is some sort of scam. Now I am not saying that it’s a fact but it’s a pretty close possibility.
For those who have just arrived, please know that this is the land of opportunities and not land of magic. You will not become rich over night. It takes time, effort, and patience to get somewhere.
God Bless,
A.H
fainak : The Moroccan Comunity here should first educate herself and learn about this great country we're living in, there are many opportunities that we should look upon and take advantage of, freedom of speech is one of them and we should also get rid of this mentality of tkoulib because we end up just harming ourselves, we should get rid of this mentality of fear to reach each other, we need to build a strong community like the Jewish community, the Italian community, the Irish community...etc...I know Moroccan immigration to the U.S. is relatively recent but we should take a real steps toward the formation of a national network where all Moroccan-Americans can connect and share their experiences and talk about their concerns, last week a young Moroccan man was shot in Philadelphia and what happenedto him could happen to anyone of us if we don't organize and set up an alert system and network that will help the Moroccan Community to be aware of the dangers surounding them and avoid to be victim of hainous, economic or racial crime in the future.
I would say we need to be less selfish, we the people who were here long enough we should help the newcomers by giving them goog advices to avoid the mistakes we made when we first came here and also to strenghten our presence because by the end everybody will benefit from a strong Moroccan Community and we all will win.
dc : Salam all:
For the many who claim (without shame) to have solved the “mystery” of what is to be a Moroccan, I say get over it. Find yourself a profession where you have a chance at excelling. Bushing your own kind -- and consequently your own heritage with all that it entails -- is at the end self defeating and no good can come out of it.
It is miraculous that an article with a positive message “and a recipe” would somehow turn into a public display of self-hating poetry that doesn’t even rhyme.
To find good, be the first one to do good and if you cannot or are unwilling, spare us the pain of your infectious self hated messages.
I ask Wafin to take seriously the request made by the article. There are a lot of wonderful (self loving) Moroccans who are dying to share the secrets of their craft with their follow Moroccans.
Wassalam
gsimo1965 : I can't detect a thing to disagree with Finak and how he saw thing.
While this conversation is about doing business in America, I think not every one is for setting up business; there are those who get employed, those who look for higher education ETC.
My advise to every one whatever he/she is interested in MUST learn English, this the first and only way to get involved and interact with the new word. COMMUNICATION I think is a 50% key holder.
While talking business I think we must talk partnership, in business there is no such a thing called help but there partnership here in this great country of opportunity and even back home a way to contribute to the development of Morocco itself, hoping that facilitation is made to Moroccan American community and Moroccan living in America .
And yes the Moroccan community is really one the very weak in term of cultivating a real practical sense. And why is that I don’t know yet.
Thank you
hamdoun : Some of us, like dc, talked about "hatred". If you study Moroccan history, you will realize that the “divide and conquer” strategy used by France and Spain during the colonization era lead us to hate each other. The north versus the south and the city dwellers versus the countrymen ect… This division became much localized. Sometimes you find neighborhoods that dislike one another.
This hatred has diminished greatly since Moroccan are able to travel now, within the country, and get to know one another.
I grew up in the north and I had horrible ideas about the south until I got the chance to make friends from Rabat and Casablanca. Then I realized that what the stereotypes are totally false.
Morocco suffers greatly from the damage caused by “divide and conquer” virus. I think we need to acknowledge this issue if we want to move forward. My experience with Moroccans all over Morocco has been great. Moroccans are know for their hospitality and generosity. NO DOUBT!!!!
We need to educate ourselves, learn from the best, and envision a bright and prosperous future.
lailak : Thanks Obaid for bringing up such an important topic.
There is no question that Moroccans luck a sense of community and cooperation in the US. I should mention the great efforts that are made by Moroccan organizations across the country to bring Moroccans together but I think there contribution is limited and it would take more time and efforts to see results.
It’s very difficult to tell why Moroccans are this way. But from my own experience, sometimes houta katwasesh swari (One fish can spoil one box of fish). When a person sees or hears negative things about other Moroccans they start avoiding each other. Unfortunately, a lot of time our culture encourage selfishness. How many often you heard this saying “Ma dir hasana may tra bas”. I would change it to “Dir hasana tktab lieke hasant(s)”
Also some Moroccans expect others to be perfect and do not tolerate any wrongdoing from other Moroccan. There is a concept of Tasamuh/forgiveness in Islam that we often forget about.
Personally, too much interference and non-respect to my personal life throws me away sometimes. I was asked once about my current salary from someone I barely knew and this person happens to be very highly educated person from Morocco.
To sum it up, the mentality/way of thinking between Moroccans living in the US for a long time and those who just arrived are quiet different and that is not very helpful to the learning of new comers and to the community as a whole. So, I think those living here and new comers should make efforts to communicate better and understand each other.
Finally, please provide help to Moroccan and any other needy person. And do not expect them to thank you but expect the Almighty to reward you. This is the way I think anyway, I extend help to others as much as possible and pray that for God rewards which is most important to me. And if you have information that might be important, share it with others and don’t think that doing so will put you at a disadvantage and trust me, the more you give God will help you more.
Salam,
Laila
benzinas : Very well said Hamdoun. I didn't want to get into too much detail about the identity issue, but I agree in principle with what you said.
DC - This is all part of the "healthy" debate we should all be having to eventually create a support system for Moroccans in the US. I understand that the way I painted the issue may not be the best, it is nontheless an opinion, and in a healthy debate, people respect each others' opinions...Also, this opinion does not in any way imply that I'm not proud of my "Morrocaneity". I wouldn't be commenting on this article if I wasn't...
While you may not see these things through your own experiences and interactions with your compatriots, they unfortunately exist and are predominent, especially if you go back to Morocco. There are a lot of books, and so much research was conducted on the issue by some very respectful Moroccan, Arab, and even German scholars. I will be happy to share some of the titles if you would like.
I don't know if one of my North Korean friends would approve of me saying this in a public forum, but this person confessed to me that their community here is so tight, that if you're Korean and new in the US, you have access to unlimited business funding, experience, jobs, education funding...etc. When you make it to the top, you have to start paying back, and so far, this circle has been very successful...
Many other communities do the same, and everyone is doing well. Some of these communities are doing so well, that they have the power to politically lobby for issues that affect them here, and even their mother country.
This is eventually where I personally would like to see the Moroccan community get...
Wassalam!
adds : Someone else said its only a question of trust we used to have a Wafin forum here where we could exchange ideas and help each other. Stupidity is inherent in our identity insults and rude jokes left no other option but to remove the forum.
May be just may be if we start talking to each other politely; we could build a relationship first earn respect and trust before we can talk about sharing businesses with Moroccan.
\\\///
Adidas Best business
minding his own
nazy : I think the reason is we are not a business people: We do not have enough business experience in a North American(capitalism)environment.We do not have equities here we are just a working people.
Since wafin.com is here meet each other(person's who have the same ideas) in a forum and create a corp. business instead of telling stories why we are not helping each other.And let's start doing it.
obaid : I am writing to thank all of you who showed interest and participated in this subject. I also want to get back to some of you with this:
Amazmiz: your call for education is welcomed and is important. To me, you are calling for a cultural and educational level before we engage for business networking. That is debatable ļ
Cervantes: What I was talking about is simply the ¡§BUSINESS IDENTITY¡¨. Thanks for your input.
Hamdoun: you said: ¡§Finally, the idea of starting a business with your fellow Moroccans CONTRADICTS the American concept¡¨. What concept are you talking about? Thank you.
Dc: I wish all Moroccans have your pride. Hamdoun talked about divisive history and he is probably right about it, but shouldn¡¦t we make our own history or at least try?
Thanks to all and here what I personally think:
-We are coming from a country that not until recently opened up for a PRIVATE SECTOR. Therefore the business world is so narrow in the mind of the new comers.
-We are coming from a country that has a high percentage of poverty. New comers are likely to be engaged in moral or family situations, so they are thinking in helping and sending money back home (let alone that this fact is so highly encouraged by the government). No blame !!!
-We are coming from a Morocco and therefore we carry with us all what morocco has to offer :a mixture of conducts and behaviors. What we sometimes call pride could be perceived as ¡§attitude¡¨!
From these facts, I believe that our business identity has a lot to do with just simply our identity and who we are.
Unless we talk, understand each other, agree and disagree which was the ultimate goal of my article, we can¡¦t step up the ladder of the hierarchy of Maslow.
Thanks again to all of you.
morocculous1 : Dear fellow moroccans:
I am so glad to have found this website and also other people that share my ideas..I've been in the states for almost 5 years,and yet i notice that most of the moroccans here don't want to have to do nothing with each other.To me it's so sad.we talk bad about each other to americans for no apparent reason,how can u?all the moroccans are not the same!!!Im not trying to analyse anyone but it's a pretty common thing(herad so many stories)..an example:I have an american friend who happen to work with a moroccan girl ,so when he found out he knew 2 moroccan girls he was really excited and told the girl ,her answer:arghhhh..i dont talk to moroccan girls,they are golddigger,high maintenance,take ur man,etc...My friend was so stupefy!!!I had to explain to him that it was a phenomenon within our community in the US...
I really hope all this will come to an end,and that instead of putting each other down we start loving and caring for one another!!!!
i love moroccansssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!!!!!!!!we rock!!!!!!So stop all that bull....
ben1225 : dear obeid,
i`ve been suffering from that symptom for years now(since i stepped a foot in this country)and i can swear that you repeated what i used to say verbatum.the answer to the question that everyone can`t help but ask is why can`t we be successful and love for our fellow moroccans what we love for ourselves?and can we achieve success one day as a community?and of course we can.BUT,without good intentions we will never move a step forward.i`ve successful fellow countrymen and i`ve seen the others,and sadly it aches me just like it aches you.i started last year my second business in the transportation industry and no one gave the ins and outs of the business as far as paperwork and how to get financed...etc and sadly i was asking people that have lived 10 and 15 years prior to me coming here.in order to achieve SUCCESS we need to change our behaviours towards one another and have respect and trust for one another,it`s only then we can move forward and discuss ways to get ahead.
ksenna1 : i don't think you need anybody's help, especially moroccans! the majority don't speak proper english and most of them than come to the US has never finished high school or middle school as far as education is concerned. before you even think about working or owning a business, educate yourself - at least basic english. you're going to live here for a long, long time. 10 yrs from now you could have money but you'll find yourself asking someone to go to the bank to make a withdrawl or a deposit .. why? you never took the time to learn englsih!
lailak : Dear all, it was nice to share and learn what some of us out there think about this delicate topic. If each of us continues to share and provide positive criticism to the Moroccan community, we will all achieve tremendous advancement and unity as a community. I hope that Moroccans will start looking at each other with respect and pride. I am afraid that such comments made by “ksenna1” are humiliating. Those who did not finish high school back home did not do so maybe because their parents could not afford to send them to school or had family problems or such. Try to help/advice them otherwise negative criticism will not take us anywhere. Weird, I’ve never heard other communities talking like this about their own people!!!.
Salam,
Laila
Marco7 : abdelnyc, right on target, right on target buddy, as you said "you're lucky if they leave you alone"
nadiacal : Here what I think, I helped a lot of people and they were gratefull, I 'm glad about it, but it happen that I have meet a very bad personn who was trying to take advantage, and I was just the way I was, I tied to accept situation that I hated but I did it thinking that I was helping one day they trough my clothes in the street and it was raining, but I didn't stop me the help who ever I could, so I think that however is that other personn we should just help because that other personn will see it and will regret the bad sides, I moved back home from the US but I'm sure there are a lot of things to do to help people so please if you chance help however you can, thank you for this great website.
yassinology : Mr. Obaid,
I would like to thank you very much for bringing up this wonderful topic. Still, To save myself the trouble of figuring out the mystery of Moroccans' identity, I will simply say it's complicated and you guys said enough about it. So, let's get down to business now.
I spent over 2 years in NYC and I'm not planning to spend another 8 years to get where Karim is now. So, please if you know about anybody with Karim's mentality and way of thinking, let them get in touch with me and we actually do something as Moroccans, human beings, and good citizens who believe in working smart, not hard to make it in this land of opportunity :)
Thank you,
yassinology@yahoo.com
Ps. I'm a new member of wafin.com. I'm so glad to find this website, but at the same time very sad to see how we--Moroccans--can't even communicate properly with each-other :(
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